Hadeeth are worse than any secondary source. Drawing information from hadeeth is like learning history off someone's blog. The wikipedia of Sunnis - collaborative effort, open to modification from all (some parts protected from vandalism), articles created every other day - the works. Sunnis invented the first wiki - fact. source
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| Pictorial depiction of Hadith narrators coming out of the mouth of Bukharists |
In wedding cards we see the names of the spouses next to each other. So why do people put names next to God's Name when He has no partners? source
Sects Accept the Fact that Instead of them Quranists are actually following the Book
Let's see, you called me a quran ist
Main Entry: 1-ist
1 a : one that performs a (specified) action <cyclist> : one that makes or produces a (specified) thing <novelist> b : one that plays a (specified) musical instrument <harpist> c : one that operates a (specified) mechanical instrument or contrivance <automobilist>
2 : one that specializes in a (specified) art or science or skill <geologist> <ventriloquist>
3 : one that adheres to or advocates a (specified) doctrine or system or code of behavior <socialist> <royalist> <hedonist> or that of a (specified) individual <Calvinist> <Darwinist>
Then I guess you don't adhere/advocate the Reading/Submission. source
Sects don't even know their own hadiths
Do all hadith'ite bookshelves have the 6 sahih books next to the quran?
Apparently the quran can't make sense without the 6 authentic hadith books. When I enter a hadith'ites house and ask him "where's your hadith collection?", they say "what?". I stay silent, as I know they won't change their ways.
How many hadith'ites have all 6 hadith collections on their bookshelves, or have read all 6 collections with each hadith ranked from strong to weak?
Enlighten me please, if ye be truthrful.
He makes a rather good point. Sunni's do not even know what is and isn't the complete authentic hadith of Muhammad, and in many cases, do not have the 6 collections of hadith in their homes! WTF?!! That's like Quranites not having the complete Quran!
It's funny how the so called scholars of Islam cannot come to an agreement as to what is actually the religion of Islam when they're supposedly the most firm with knowledge of the "right path. source
Sects Can See Each Other's Crisis
Funny thing is that both sides,sunni and shia, can see how full of shit the other side is. If only enough people would look in the mirror and apply the same scrutiny to themselves that they apply to others, what a wonderfull world it would be. source
Sects Must Admit that They Aren't Following Quranic Prophet Muhammad
"We all know the quranic statement that "Obeying Mohammed is Obeying God".
How can then the hadithist state that obeying Mohammed in hadith, which are not inspired by God, to be Obeying God?
Several verses deal with this logic of Mohammed voices God. "He speaks not of his own desire."
That means hadith, can ultimately only deal with God, but they do not.
How is it that so much litterature, can then speak of a personal Mohammed? From Quranic Logic we can see that he does not exist!
The quranic logic, fits only, when we talk about a fulltime messenger. A person who voices only God, whom obeying, is obeying God.
Conclusion: There is no personal Mohammed to be obeyed. All tales of him, after he entered messengerhood, stating what is deemed uninspired by God, must be false. If there has been fabricated this large extent of hadith, then all of them are subject to extreme questioning of validity." source
Sects Must Admit that it is Hypocretical to Respond to Arguments of Jews and Christians
"I will like to say to all the hadith and sunna followers that if they believe that the Rope of God (The Quran) is similar to the traditions/sayings written about Muhammad 300-400 years after his death then they should hold there tongue when they debate amongst the Christians and the Jews! The Hadith and Sunna has 10 times more contradictions than the Bible!!!!! How in all that is good can God ask his servants to follow books that have numerous contradictions??? It is like a teacher giving a student a book filled with mistakes and errors to study for a test. If the student fails who is to blame? The teacher or the student?.... Is it not the teacher?
No follower of sunna or hadith could ever win a argument of reason with any of those who follow the previous scriptures! How could they if they themselves follow more numerous contradictions than the Jews and Christians today? The path that God has sent for those who are sincere is straight and easy. Not filled with contradictions and mysteries! These are for people who have little understanding and who have no brains for themselves. They enjoy having tales bottle feed to them from those who are themselves corrupt and have no understanding or logic!
You stay with your numerous contradictions and keep it to yourself.
But please remember one thing, you will NEVER find ' a way ' that is better than what God has prescribed for those who acknowledge him ALONE and those who understand". source
Sects Must Agree that They are not Sure What they Actually Follow
Every time I bring up a major issue, especially with hadith and fiqh (including quotes by Ibn Kathir, Ibn Taymiya and the founders of Maliki, Hanbali, Hanifi and Shafi) I hear some of the most inane, insincere answers. The worst of all is when they say "it's not in the Quran!" (even though it's in hadith), while in the next breath saying Quranists aren't real Muslims for rejecting hadith.
Then they say we should follow Sahih hadith/trust the scholars, but when a cruddy Sahih hadith is brought to their attention, they say not all hadith (even Sahih) are true. Then when you ask for their methodology, they say they follow what they think is right or what doesn't conflict with the Quran in THEIR opinion. Yet, when I do the same thing and say I don't trust ANY hadith, they lash out.
THEN, and this makes me most irritated, they will comment on barbaric practices around the world, like flogging of people, sex slaves, pushing gays off buildings etc. ALL things that are justified in the traditional fiqh.
So JUST BECAUSE there is some minority dissenting view that happens to reject the traditional fiqh, does NOT change the fact that the entire structure on which our current understanding of Islam sits (cough the traditional fiqh) is deeply flawed. Yet no one is out here challenging that. No one is offering a methodology, or anything more than their subjective cherry picking of hadiths, scholars and fiqh. They say beating the wife, as "allowed" by the Quran means lightly, but then get indignant when someone reads beat to mean just that: beat (despite there also being a lot of historical support for more severe interpretations, and the fact that EVEN A LIGHT beating is barbaric). They say Islam doesn't mean to kill apostates or gay and pretend to be appalled when it happens, yet all the four schools of thought allow for it in some form or another. They say FGM is disgusting, yet when hadith are pointed out in favor of it, they start making excuses that it's not removal of the labia or clit or whatever, yet still justifying some level of mutilation.
Traditional Islam is the problem, and while many Muslims are riding on the coattails of a long history of sexism, misogyny, violence and oppression, they have the nerve to decry all such things and make out an inconsistent, subjective, and deceptive slant to their Islam, all while holding to its "traditional" foundation.
I call for NO MORE HADITH. No more gymnastics. No more condemning people who interpret words plainly and in accordance with traditional fiqh just because you personally don't like it. Either you reject the entire methodology (namely, the entire fiqh and scholarship) and start fresh, or you shut up and sit down.
Sorry for the language/rant but I'm sick and tired of this charades I see with Muslims.source
Sects Must Admit they are Following Bible Instead of "Hadiths" of the Prophet
"Let's take a test and see who really serves Allah and obeys the Prophet, and who does not.
This is ‘pass or fail’, just as it will be on the Day of Judgment. Let us see who truly rejects the Quran.
Only in the Quran, the pure, protected revelation, do we have proof of the Messenger’s words:
"Say: 'I do not find, in what is revealed to me, anything forbidden to him who eats thereof except it be carrion, or blood outpoured, or the flesh of swine -- that is unclean -- or an ungodly thing that has been blessed to other than Allah; yet whoso is constrained, not desiring nor transgressing, surely thy Lord is All-forgiving, All-compassionate.'" Surah 6:145
That is the Prophet Muhammad speaking. He states nothing is forbidden EXCEPT four specific foods. Carrion, blood, flesh of swine, and food blessed to another god.
Now turn to hadith, and count how many foods are forbidden within.
Then look to the additions in the Torah and find the same forbidden foods as the Jews – Orthodox Yahduians who follow the Talmud, also known as the Oral Law; hadith of Moses.
Beasts with fangs: Sahih Bukhari #5527, Sahih Muslim # 2721
Donkey Meat: Sahih Bukhari #5521
Birds with talons: Sahih Muslim # 4752
Amphibians: Saheeh Jaami #6970
Beasts with fangs: Lev. 11:3; Deut. 14:6
Donkey Meat: Lev. 11:3-4, Deut. 14:7
Birds with talons: Lev. 11:13-20, Deut. 14:12
Amphibians: Lev. 11:29-30, 42-43, Deut. 14:10
Halal/kosher food: Lev. 11:1-46, Deut. 14:3-21
Allah revealed to the Messenger that all foods not forbidden in the Quran were permitted to the People of the Book.
“Today the good things are permitted you, and the food of those who were given the Book is permitted to you, and permitted to them is your food; Likewise believing women in wedlock, and in wedlock women of them who were given the Book before you if you give them their wages, in wedlock and not in licence, or as taking lovers. Whoso disbelieves in the faith, his work has failed, and in the world to come he shall be among the losers.” Surah 5:5
When proof is given, who is shown to reject the Quran and who is shown to uphold it?
"The Truth has come and falsehood vanished. Surely falsehood is ever bound to vanish." Surah 17:81, 34:47-50
Only believers, Muslims with faith in their heart who uphold the revelation of Allah, the word of an honored Messenger, pass the test. Surah 69:40-43, 81:19
Allah condemns hadiths: Surah 7:185,12:111, 31:6, 45:6, 52:34, 68:44, 77:50
“These are the communications of Allah which We recite to you with truth; then in what saying (hadeethin) would they believe after Allah and His communications?” Surah 45:6
“Allah has revealed the best saying (hadeethin), a Book (Kitaban) conformable in its various parts, repeating, whereat do shudder the skins of those who fear their Lord, then their skins and their hearts become pliant to the remembrance of Allah; this is Allah's guidance, He guides with it whom He pleases; and (as for) him whom Allah makes err, there is no guide for him.” Surah 39:23
Those who uphold hadith reject the Quran. Allah has not given authority to follow anything but what He revealed.
“Follow what has been revealed to you from your Lord and do not follow guardians besides Him, how little do you mind.” Surah 7:3" source
Sects Must Think Twice Before Calling Quran followers a Sect
"The word "sect" brings to my mind an established group that has a 'head' or spiritual guide somewhere. It is more organized in nature.
The Shiites are a sect because they are an established group with an 'imam' they turn to for guidance, who resides in Iran ( And Iraq recently ) . It's not really surprising that Shiites are allways connected to Iran.... the reasons are historical .
The Sunnites are a sect that follow an established order, whose heads are at Azhar and Saudi Arabia..
Do the progressive muslims form a sect too? do they have an established religious order headed by somone? Does this order have political influence? Or are they just a loose and scattered group of people from all over the world, who share the same vision?
Ask yourself these questions.
If I, as a person, believe in God alone without associating partners to him, and believe in the Koran as the only source of guidance, but practice my beliefs in the privacy of my own bedroom, not giving a damn what other people believe... does that make me part of a sect??" source
Sects Must Agree they Got their Salat from "Opinions"
As you know Sunni, Shia, Khawarij existed because of hadith, so this means most of their fiqh,hukm, teachings is from hadiths.
Actually Sunni or Shia salat is not from hadiths, but it's only ulamas intepretation who tafseered from Ahadith
The proof is you never find traditional Sunni salats in single Shahih hadith, it means you can't find it in Shaheh Bukhari alone, Sunan Abu Daus alone etc.
Instead the Ulema's metods is they gathering all the hadiths together then pick some hadith which they think it's fits for their intepretation and then they claim their intepretation is equal of hadith's real meaning.
So the recent traditional salat is not necessary true according to the hadith, because hadith books is only literal teks, never showing some pictures for salat guide.
Intepretation is just like a translation, is not perfect and cannot 100% appoarch the real meaning of Scripture literal teks.
Btw we also know, why Quran aloners have different ways each other in salat, according to me it's normal because humans created for differences, their thinking, ideals, mind maps also differently each other.
Differences in fatwas is not important in Islam, the more important is our faith n commitment to Allah
2:177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but pious is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the angels, and the Book, and the prophets, and who gives money out of love to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy, and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves; and who upholds the contact prayer, and who contributes towards purification; and
those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of hardship and adversity and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and these are the righteous. source
Salam/Peace dear sibling & Allah (SWTAY) bless you, i am curious if this website is still active on refuting the sectarians?
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